In a recent episode of the “Courage to Lead for 2025” podcast, host Allan Sicard engages in a compelling conversation with Professor Cordelia Fine, a renowned author and professor at Melbourne University. Known for her influential works on gender, including “Delusions of Gender,” “Testosterone Rex,” and her latest book, “Patriarchy Inc,” Professor Fine delves into the complexities of gender equality, leadership, and the societal implications of these issues. This blog post will break down the key insights from their discussion, offering thorough explanations to guide listeners and readers alike.
Leadership and Gender Dynamics
Identifying and Nurturing Leadership Skills
In an unusual twist, Cordelia Fine became the interviewer and asked Allan Sicard to reflect on traditional leadership practices, particularly in policing, where he emphasises the importance of identifying and nurturing leadership skills among all ranks, not just those in senior positions. He shares an innovative approach he adopted, which involved selecting constables and sergeants with leadership potential to participate in training, thereby creating a diverse pool of leaders who brought unique perspectives to the table. This method not only fostered inclusivity but also energised the participants, who appreciated the opportunity to contribute.
Cordelia Fine – Cultural Resistance to Change
Professor Fine elaborates on the complexities of identity within professional settings, noting that many individuals forge their identities around their work, often leading to resistance against changes that threaten their established roles. She references a study on surgical reforms in the U.S., where attempts to reduce working hours faced pushback from surgeons who identified with the demanding nature of their profession. This resistance underscores the challenge of implementing reforms that, while beneficial, may disrupt deeply ingrained professional identities.
Cordelia Fine – The Role of Policy and Culture in Gender Equality
Formal Policies and Informal Cultural Norms
Cordelia Fine highlights the significance of both formal policies and informal cultural norms in shaping workplace dynamics. She points out that while policies can be established to promote equality, the underlying culture—what is valued, who is celebrated, and the unspoken rules—plays a crucial role in determining whether those policies are effective.
Strategies for Promoting Gender Equality
Cordelia Fine outlines three key strategies for advancing gender equality in the workplace:
Reorienting Societal Assumptions: There needs to be a shift in how society views work-life balance, recognising that individuals may have varying capacities for ideal work at different life stages.
De-gendering Jobs: It is essential to challenge the gender coding of professions, moving away from stereotypes that associate certain roles with specific genders. This involves redefining what it means to be competent in various fields, particularly those traditionally dominated by one gender.
Addressing Gendered Childhood Experiences: Recognise how gender norms are instilled from a young age. By fostering a more gender-neutral environment for children, society can help dismantle stereotypes that limit opportunities and self-concept.
Creating Inclusive Workplaces
Cordelia Fine – Adapting to Changing Family Structures
Cordelia Fine emphasises the need for workplaces to adapt to the changing dynamics of family structures and caregiving responsibilities. She argues that traditional models of work, which assume a male breadwinner and a female caregiver, are increasingly outdated. Instead, organisations should recognise that employees have lives outside of work, including caregiving for children and aging parents, and should create policies that support this balance. Cordelia actually referenced the interview of a recent guest on the show, Michelle O’Keefe, who structured her workplace around the lives that people have outside of work.
The Importance of Policy and Organisational Change
The discussion concludes with Cordelia Fine advocating for a comprehensive approach to workplace reform that includes both policy changes and cultural shifts within organisations. She highlights the importance of creating environments where employees feel supported in taking time for personal responsibilities without fear of negative repercussions on their careers.
Cordelia Fine – Conclusion and Call to Action
As the episode draws to a close, Allan Sicard commends Cordelia Fine for her dedication to advancing gender equality and her ability to articulate complex issues in an accessible manner. He encourages listeners to engage with her work, highlighting the importance of understanding the data and evidence that support the need for change in workplace dynamics.
Professor Fine concludes by reiterating the complexity of the challenges ahead but remains optimistic about the potential for progress. She encourages listeners to consider how they can contribute to creating more equitable workplaces, emphasising that change often starts at the individual level.
This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the ongoing struggle for gender equality and the critical role that leadership plays in shaping a more inclusive future. Through thoughtful dialogue, the conversation inspires listeners to reflect on their own roles in fostering positive change within their organisations and communities.